Hi every one.  I am new to this forum but have actually been a part of Cheryl's Google group for many months.  I have been following many threads there but have yet to make the jump from FP2003 to EW.  My reasons are:

-Another steep learning curve (been using FP since 2000)

-I'm self taught, so not the "brightest bulb" in the box when it comes to knowing the "ins and outs" of web building even though I have used FP for years

-I can't afford to make a mess out of my site doing the "migration" and am scared to death of it.

-I get the opinion from some that it actually (EW) has less features and abilities than FP2003 does?

-Is it worth the upgrade cost in a case like mine?

I manage 2 sites at the moment, my own which is http://www.wm8c.com or in my signature and one for my church which is at http://www.tvcweb.com and as you will see, they are basically the same simple 4 sided layout and both use a custom .dwt built in FP2003 from the tutorial in the help file (I only discovered the .dwt function a little over a year ago) as I had been using the "template" function prior to finding that little gem of a tool!

I am also in the progress of building a new .dwt for my wife's website that isn't live yet so I can't show that here right now, but it has some more advanced features than the other two and is a top-right-bottom layout.

Anyway, I would love to hear from everyone on why I should consider changing.  You've heard my fears and concerns, and I need some help to push me over the edge or change my mind about upgrading if that is the better choice for me. 

I have avoided downloading the beta because I've had difficulties in the past getting rid of the "beta tracks" after the fact when I do upgrade to the full version when I purchase. (Microsoft issue)

Thanks in advance for all the good advice and answers to my questions that I know I'm going to receive :O)

 Hi wm8c
Below are my answers to your questions.

-I'm self taught, so not the "brightest bulb" in the box when it comes to knowing the "ins and outs" of web building even though I have used FP for years. "I too am self taught. I have been using FP since version 97"

-I can't afford to make a mess out of my site doing the "migration" and am scared to death of it. " Change is scary, but can be a GOOD thing. When updating a website, the best advise I can give is to make a backup copy of your current website. This way when you are learning your way around EW you can use a copy of your site and still have a copy of your original one. Switching over to EW does not mean you have to stop using FP, when you purchase EW and install it, just do a custom install and you will get an option of keeping any other FP versions you may have installed, this way you can still keep a copy of FP on your computer. By having both FP and EW you can take more time to gain a comfort level in EW while still being able to work in FP.

-I get the opinion from some that it actually (EW) has less features and abilities than FP2003 does? "EW has a lot of NEW features designed to help the web design move forward. Some things have been removed, but suppoters of both programs (FPand EW) have provided work arounds and add-ins to help you."

-Is it worth the upgrade cost in a case like mine? " Yes, it will be worth it. The web is changing, and you need to be able to change and move forward too. Does it mean you have to change all at once, no, but by learning and making the change you will be ready.

I manage 2 sites at the moment, my own which is http://www.wm8c.com or in my signature and one for my church which is at http://www.tvcweb.com and as you will see, they are basically the same simple 4 sided layout and both use a custom .dwt built in FP2003 from the tutorial in the help file (I only discovered the .dwt function a little over a year ago) as I had been using the "template" function prior to finding that little gem of a tool! "EW supports dwt, and as you gain comfort level in working with EW you will be able to make your sites more ready for the changes that are taking place on the web and the way people browse and use the internet."

I am also in the progress of building a new .dwt for my wife's website that isn't live yet so I can't show that here right now, but it has some more advanced features than the other two and is a top-right-bottom layout. " Since you are doing a new site, now it a good time to take advantage of all EW has to offer."

Anyway, I would love to hear from everyone on why I should consider changing.  You've heard my fears and concerns, and I need some help to push me over the edge or change my mind about upgrading if that is the better choice for me.  " I understand your fears, I too have had the same fears in the past when moving to a new version of FP, I was so afraid of making the change, when I did and found a new comfort level, I thought to myself, NOW why didn't I do this sooner." I have never regretted moving forward" When I make the switch over to EW, I know I will only be advancing my knowledge and improving my skills so I can move forward with today's technology requirements."

I have avoided downloading the beta because I've had difficulties in the past getting rid of the "beta tracks" after the fact when I do upgrade to the full version when I purchase. (Microsoft issue) "EW is new to everyone, so you will not be by yourself, we will all be learning together. Just remember when you upgrade, just do a custom install, so you can still keep FP on your computer while you are learning EW and developing a new comfort level."

My personal view is that replacing (you qualify for upgrade pricing but Expression is not FrontPage as you have been hearing.:) )

Whether or not it is worth changing? In my opnion yes but that's in large part because the web continues to change whether or not you change with it.

Don't be afraid of change, what I would suggest is installing the trial, making a copy of your webs and work on them online while you learn and get comfortable.

-I can't afford to make a mess out of my site doing the "migration" and am scared to death of it. Don't be scared. Make a backup of your site, open it in EW and play to your heart's content. I not only made a backup to an external hard drive, but created a new folder with the revised site to play with in that folder.

-I get the opinion from some that it actually (EW) has less features and abilities than FP2003 does? Not in the least! and there is a tutorial DVD in the box although I have not used it as yet.

-Is it worth the upgrade cost in a case like mine? Yes, Yes, yes! I have fp2002, fp2003 and EW installed on this computer and go back and forth when necessary- especially when I am helping someone who is using an earlier version.

I manage 2 sites at the moment, my own which is http://www.wm8c.com or in my signature and one for my church which is at http://www.tvcweb.com and as you will see, they are basically the same simple 4 sided layout and both use a custom .dwt built in FP2003 from the tutorial in the help file (I only discovered the .dwt function a little over a year ago) as I had been using the "template" function prior to finding that little gem of a tool!

 Once you try EW - download the trial version and give it a spin - you will understand why. Moving to cascading style sheets is much easier with EW.

pat 

FWIW I forgot to say that Expression does not have less features than FrontPage. It has different features.

I much prefer the feature set in Expression than the feature set in FrontPage.

Thanks for all the input so far and the helpful comments on the questions I raised.  I have gone through the features list on the expressions site but I'm not sure what I'm seeing that is all that different from what FP2003 does?  Can someone go into a bit more detail on what Expression offers that FP2003 doesn't?

Cheryl and Pat, you have both given a "yes" vote for the feature set in EW vs.FP2003 but what are the features you are referring to that will hep with the "ever changing web" that you've referred too?  I'm not an ASP user and work in pretty much a straight html and php environment.  What new features are there that specifically address the "new web of the future"?

I also found the last version of FP2003 still has bugs where the DWT's are concerned (problem with removing a DWT once attached).  Has this been fixed in EW so that these issues are gone now?  Chery, I think you mentioned the move to CSS being easier with EW...what features are there that make it better than in FP2003?

Sorry for having so many questions, but I just got so used to FP2003, that I want to be sure that the jump to this version won't be a crash and burn operation and just sits on my PC and does nothing while I continue to work with the old FP.  I understand the reason for a double install (keeping FP and EW both on the machine) but is it just during the learning curve or are there things that are not compatible in EW and FP that I will need both for in the future?

Thanks for all the input so far...I'm feeling better about the choice already :O)

I have had very few problems with DWTs in FrontPage or in Expression so I don't know what bugs you are referring to.

CSS in FrontPage is a joke that has remained unchanged since at least 2000 (I don't have any of the earlier than that but my understanding is 98 uses the same styles dialogs.). There is no real CSS editor but instead you have the Styles dialog boxes from Word that are missing many of the properties that CSS others are misnamed so that it is hard to tell which property they are intended to be.

Managing styles is a manual process in FrontPage. You have to copy/paste betwen anything created in FP using the styles box. Using Expression you drop a stylesheet on the page then in the manage styles task pane you simply drag it between the current page styles and the external styles. 

CSS Properties task pane does almost everything that TopStyle does and some things that it does not such really easy to troubleshoot inheritance because you get a clear easy to navigate way of telling which style is controlling what aspect of the display.

Frankly, I'm glad the FPSE are gone. All the FPSEs are is a set of precompiled server side scripts that are installed on the server that have not been updated in years. As I've mentioned the web has changed a lot. When the FPSE were created spam was rare. Now I get hundreds of pieces of spam a day (though few of them make it to my inbox but filters also mean I miss some legitimate emails.). The method used by FPSE form handlers exposes email addresses for harvesting. The code generated by other bots is non-standard and generally IE specific.

Heck, much of the code genereated by FrontPage if it is used purely in design view with click, click, tada doesn't even render in Firefox and some of it doesn't even work in IE 7 very well.

FrontPage doesn't write code to the doctype which Expression does so you don't end up with <br /> on a page without an XHTML doctype when <br> shoudl be used.

FYI, there is one issue with PHP in Expression which relates to the UTF-8 BOM encoding so make sure that you specify a different characterset for your PHP pages. See the article/tutorial over on the main http://by-expression.com site for more information.

Being a FrontPage lover and user I understand your concerns. Below are answers to your questions from the overall expericence in working with FP and EW.

""I understand the reason for a double install (keeping FP and EW both on the machine) but is it just during the learning curve or are there things that are not compatible in EW and FP that I will need both for in the future?""

Mostly the suggest in keeping FP on your machine was for your comfort until you mastered and got comfortable using EW and found work arounds to the items you were use to using in FP. I myself will continue to keep at least 2 copies of FP on my machine, only because of my work in creating web templates and to be able to help new designers understand FP that are just starting out and may never upgrade to EW. Plus FP still offers me the opportunity to use the features I love most and can still offer these in my web template designs. I will learn to be comfotable in EW because for me to expand my knowledge and be able to stay on top of the template designs I need to be able to move forward like everyone else.

" I'm not sure what I'm seeing that is all that different from what FP2003 does?  Can someone go into a bit more detail on what Expression offers that FP2003 doesn't?"

It is not a matter of what each one offers, it is what the learning and knowledge you will aquire. EW offers you more and you do not need other programs to get the same results. For example in FP to work with CSS in FP you needed to use a CSS editor. You also needed to remember to apply your Doc Type to your page. In EW it makes it easier to use and work with CSS and it also provides the Doc Type code for you. EW forces you to become a better web designer by helping you meet the correct web standards. EW still is in the growing stages and most likely will go through some change just like FP did. By learning to work in EW now you will soon grow and develop good work habits just as you did when you were learning FrontPage.

I will be the first to admit, when I first tried EW in beta, I was upset. All my fun toys were taken away, then I started to see new toys in EW beta. While I learn my way around EW when I upgrade, I'm sure I will miss some of features I was use to in FP. For example, at one time I was in love with FP 98 and a new version was released. It took me a while to even try FP 2000, when I did, I did not like the changes, but I learned and mastered them. When FP 2003 came out I was just getting use to FP 2002, NO way was I going to make a change again. I kept hearing about all the great things FP03 had, so I upgraded. I found the change to be frustrating and continued to work in FP02. Well, I forced myself to learn FP03, after a while I soon LOVED everything FP03 it had to offer and have not looked back at the older versions. Will I be frustrated while working in EW, yes just I was in FP. Will I regrett leaving FP, most likely not.

My suggestion is not to keep comparing the 2 web editors, but to learn to use them both to your advantage and enjoy what both have to offer.

Debbie

"" but I just got so used to FP2003, that I want to be sure that the jump to this version won't be a crash and burn operation.""

Will the move to EW be a crash and burn on your computer, this will depend on you. Do you want to advance? Are you willing to go the extra mile to learn new things and explore new technology for better web design?

Will EW in general crash and burn? I think not, will there be changes in EW, most likely. FP went through numerous changes.

Will FP become lost, again I think not as there are too many supporters for FP. Is there still a future for FP, to some degree, but as technology advances and new web designers learn to advance, FP may become a thing of the past, but not for a few years.

Debbie

I have had very few problems with DWTs in FrontPage or in Expression so I don't know what bugs you are referring to. 

Seems when I use new software I always find something lol!  When I started using DWT's (I was mad that when I finally discovered them because I had FP2003 for almost 2 years by then) I wanted to have different DWT's and ran into the problems discussed here at MS help center.  There are work arounds but they never fixed it.

http://support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx?catalog=LCID%3D1033&spid=2514&query=removing+dynamic+web+template&adv=&mode=s&cat=False

Managing styles is a manual process in FrontPage. You have to copy/paste between anything created in FP using the styles box. Using Expression you drop a style sheet on the page then in the manage styles task pane you simply drag it between the current page styles and the external styles. 

CSS Properties task pane does almost everything that TopStyle does and some things that it does not such really easy to troubleshoot inheritance because you get a clear easy to navigate way of telling which style is controlling what aspect of the display.

Is the power great enough so as not to need to use DWT's?  Obviously CSS is a powerful tool in it's own right and I have seen sites that change their "entire look, graphics and all" with just attaching a different style sheet?  Or am I confusing the two and their functions?  I must admit, I'm no expert on DWT's by any stretch of the imagination.  Are there some good intermediate tutorials for DWT's as I already understand creating them?

Frankly, I'm glad the FPSE are gone. All the FPSEs are is a set of precompiled server side scripts that are installed on the server that have not been updated in years.

You and me both!  I always hated looking for a service provider that had front page extensions.  Ok, so that being said, what did they do to deal with forms, etc.?

Debbie thanks for you thoughts as well in the two posts you made, they were very helpful.

CSS is wonderful but they do not totally replace DWTs. CSS is for presentation while DWTs are for content. For example you can use CSS to load a background image for your masthead, style whatever html elements that are there but what it cannot do is add the html for you. That is what the DWT does for your content that is the same from page to page in your site.

Re the DWT problems, most of those reported are from working live on a server something I would never do when I needed to update a template. Heck, I rarely do it even to make minor changes since you then run into versioning issues.

As for ASP (or other server side code) there are other options which such as putting the code below the comment that attached the dwt. I have seen that one but I tend not to use FrontPage DWTs with server side code that is processed on the page. For that I usually use Dreamweaver. ;)

CSS is wonderful but they do not totally replace DWTs. CSS is for presentation while DWTs are for content. For example you can use CSS to load a background image for your masthead, style whatever HTML elements that are there but what it cannot do is add the HTML for you. That is what the DWT does for your content that is the same from page to page in your site.

That is the best explanation I heard so far about the difference between DWT's and CSS.  Thanks for that.  Do you know where I can find some intermediate tutorials on DWT's?  I understand how to create them but I would love to better understand how to make fuller use of them.

Re the DWT problems, most of those reported are from working live on a server something I would never do when I needed to update a template. Heck, I rarely do it even to make minor changes since you then run into versioning issues.

The biggest problem I've had with DWT's in FP2003 is the issue of removing one from a page that already has one.  If you aren't aware of it (the manual work around) and remove the template, it will still look like it was never removed.  The goofy things about it is that if you then re-attach the template, you end up with a template on your template so to speak.  It's like when you used to use shared borders in FP.  If you didn't remove your borders before applying the template, the template just attach's over your existing borders and now you have a double set of borders on your page.  It's really frustrating and that's why I asked if that "bug" had been fixed in EW.

I was also curious since they have removed the need for FPSE's on how they are handling forms etc. in EW?  Or is that what you were trying to answer in your previous post and I just didn't understand it?

Thanks...

Have you tried Tina's ebook on DWTs or is it too basic for you?

http://starttoweb.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=186&zenid=81ef6ac72d4df55d68118147b9ebf9b2

I've read through the ebook and it did provide a couple of tips I had not thought of as of yet so thanks for recommending that download.

As I sit here re-publishing my site for the fifth time this morning I am questioning why the DWT's are handled as they are.  For example...today all I wanted to do was change the color for my Kontera links which comprises of "6 letters" on one line.  But to do that, I have to update all of the pages attached to that DWT and republish them all :(

This is extremely time consuming on a large site like mine and takes a lot of time.  I realize that this might not be a question for this forum but I'm hoping there is something I'm missing and just doing this the hard way. 

My question is, "can it or why can't it" be treated like an include where the template is updated with out having to republish "hundreds" of pages attached to it every time I make a change?

Seems to me there must be a better way that I'm missing or did MS just fall asleep on this one a bit?  I'm hoping this is something of ignorance or a "duh" moment on my part?